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Friday, June 22, 2012

Comments

Bill Fleming

It is a big distraction and countermeasure to the DOJ investigation of GOP nationwide voter supression and disenfranchisement and to GOPs refusal to pass legislation that would actually help fix the economy.

Not to worry, the economy is recovering anyway, and the GOP governors are having a hard time denying it, much to Romney's chagrin. This is a last hurrah for the GOP demographically. The only question is, will they go out with a bang? Or a whimper.

duggersd

This is something that reminds me of the scandal known as Watergate. In the beginning of that scandal, we had a bungled burglary attempt. In the end it brought down a presidency not because of the crime but because of the crimes committed in the coverup.
The only voter suppression the GOP wishes to suppress are people who are not eligible to vote. The only reason the DOJ is investigating is because they need those illegal votes to get President Obama re-elected. And please don't tell us the GOP is not trying to pass anything that would actually help the economy. That is the tactic of the Senate and a certain political party.
Yes, the private sector is doing fine. That is reflected in the fewer claims in unemployment and the dropping of the unemployment rate and the historic increase in worker participation.

larry kurtz

Sec. of State Clinton summed it up pretty well the other day when she said, "We are at war."

You earth haters dragged us into "the war on drugs", Ken: now own it.

Donald Pay

Although this program began under the Bush administration, not one Bush administration official, let alone Bush's AG testified. Do ya' think this is just Republicans acting political? The truth is this: Republicans can't handle the truth.

duggersd

Donald, it is interesting the way you view history. F&F was started under Bush? In my memory, President Bush left office in January of 2009. F&F began in October of 2009. So now it appears Bush was forcing his policies onto President Obama. I guess that explains why President Obama has extended so many of Bush's policies.
The Administration has said it only used the same tactics as the Bush Administration. They are of course referring to project Wide Receiver. The main difference in that is that instead of letting the weapons go across the border, they were ARRESTED! We have here an administration responsible for the deaths and injuries of hundreds of Mexican citizens and at least two US law officers. No, Donald, YOU can't handle the truth. BTW, I believe Holder has admitted F&F was not started under the Bush Administration.

larry kurtz

"The whole mess, however, has its origins in the fevered imaginings of Alabama militiaman Michael Vanderboegh, a blogger and writer of Timothy McVeigh-inspired anti-federal government fiction. And of course, whenever right wingers think their gun ownership rights may be threatened, they tend to go full-tilt-boogie batshit cuckoo crazy, which is exactly what has happened."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/21/rachel-maddow-explains-what-the-hell-fast-and-furious-is-all-about/

diverticulitis symptoms

southdakotapolitics.blogs.com is super!! Love to come back here

Ken Blanchard

Bill: maybe you need you medication adjusted. You are starting to sound a little bit like Kurtz.

larry kurtz

go easy on bill, ken: maybe think of what i do here as qualitative easing....

Donald Pay

There are multiple projects and programs that were trying to infiltrate and take out the Mexican cartels. F & F was one, but there are/were others extending back to the Bush administration that were doing about the same thing. Unless you start your investigations from the beginning you aren't going to know what was F & F and what was something else. Issa is not interested in the truth.

duggersd

Donald, I believe you are referring to Operation Wide Receiver. In that case, the program was shut down in 2007 due to the fact they were no longer able to track the weapons. For whatever reasons, the ATF under Holder and the Obama Administration tried to have people illegally move guns across the border. Contrary to WR, F&F did not keep the Mexican government apprised of the situation. Contrary to WR, F&F did not track the weapons. Contrary to WR, F&F was primarily intended to create a furor over semi-automatic weapons in order to get the American people demanding legislation. OK, I am surmising on that one, but who really wants to bet against it? The ATF under Holder and the Obama Administration started their operation long after anything under the Bush Administration ended. They apparently failed to learn from what went wrong in the previous sort of similar operation. The only person I see not interested in the truth is you, Donald. And people who think like you do. All you appear to be interested in is political gain.

Jimi

Bill,

"the economy is recovering anyway, and the GOP governors are having a hard time denying it"

I can understand that knowledge of the facts in economics on the state and federal level can be difficult. I think it is just fabulous that people like you spew this nonsense in times like these, because it really shows the weakness of the Leftist Ideologies, and it makes it easier for your side to be defeated. The blind faith and indoctrination shines thru, and this is what awakens the common sense folks to the fact that the Left has to lie to be able to maneuver.

You can't have it both ways. Either your President gets to use the fact that the economics are horrible to institute the Leftist agendas, or your President has created a successful economic environment which the facts bear out? Do you know the facts?....Do you care?

Keep up the good work!

Kody K

Whether people actually want to realize it or not, the "Fast and Furious" scandal is a big deal. It has Americans reexamining the values of our country and, though many would disagree, the 2012 presidential election. Granted, most liberals are not going to change their minds about Obama. However, the independents, which are increasing more and more, could make their decision based on this and other factors, i.e. the immigration policy. While operation "Fast and Furious" will eventually blow over, the long term impact may not. It will be a fight to the end.

larry kurtz

Statehood for Mexico and the tribes.

Donald Pay

Wide Receiver was just one of many programs in both AFT, FBI and Homeland Security. All these programs need to be investigated, but it goes to number of agencies and two administrations. Issa really isn't interested. His "investigation" isn't is slipshod and incomplete, but rather than do a good job, he tries to take the onus off himself for running a bad investigation.

duggersd

Donald,
# of ATF agents killed in WR: 0
# of ICE agents killed in WR: 0
# of Mexican citizens killed in WR: 0
# of ATF agents killed in F&F: 1
# of ICE agents killed in F&F: 1
# of Mexican citizens killed in F&F: 200+
Which of these projects needs investigation? The only thing slipshod and incomplete is what is being turned over as per subpoenas. That is on the DOJ and now the White House. Again, it was not the crime that brought down the Nixon Administration, it was the coverup. In this case, that will probably not be an issue as President Obama will probably not be in office when all of this gets through the courts.

Donald Pay

The issue is much more complicated. There were a succession of goofy ideas about gunwalking, all to go after the drug cartels that wouldn't exist if we dealt with drugs differently in this country. The gunwalking ideas originated during the Bush administration and with each successive fuck up and failure, they got more and more goofy and extreme. The investigation needs to be much broader, and include how the entire idiotic war on drugs has created both the drug cartels in Mexico and an out-of-control anti-drug bureaucracy in the US. But Issa is conducting a political vendetta, not a real investigation.

duggersd

And Holder and President Obama are stonewalling. They are possibly covering illegal activities. Keep defending the undefensible. This investigation is about how two American citizens were murdered and apparently killed by weapons the Administration did not bother to trace. It is also about the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens. It is also about arming cartels without bothering to tell the Mexican government. This Administration is responsible for the deaths of Mexican citizens and then has the gonads to ask Latinos for their vote. Amazing.

Donald Pay

"They are possibly covering illegal activities." See, the whole drug policy is what ought be be under investigation, and yet we've got Issa ejaculating over minutia. I think it is really the other way. Issa is trying to focus narrowly on an issue that deserves broad investigation. He's covering up for the entire failure of US drug policy since Nixon.

larry kurtz

Exactly, Don. In fact, Issa and his earth hater colleagues are direct beneficiary of the federal drug war:

"...Issa and other Republican members of his committee are also claiming the administration concocted this mess so they could mess with guns. “Very clearly,” Issa told Fox News, “they made a crisis and they’re using this crisis to somehow take away or limit people’s 2nd Amendment rights.”"

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-darrell-issa-delusions-20120621,0,2379788.story

larry kurtz

"The hope among so many of the electorate, exhausted by the violence, is that the PRI, if it wins, will change gear with regard to America's "war on drugs", maybe even forge a coupling of overt force with other forms of coercion and entreaty."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/23/mexico-elections-drugs-war?CMP=twt_gu

duggersd

OK, we have Donald yapping about a drug policy but does not care about the Mexicans and Americans murdered by the weapons supplied by this Administration defending the Administration and we have the people hater yapping about something, but God only knows what. I think this has gone about as fer as it can go. I am still waiting btw for that arrest of Governor Walker that Donald assured us was coming within days of the election. People being killed is OK with you, but just let someone allege a bogus charge and you are all up in arms. Amazing!

larry kurtz

In a nutshell, Barnes: Issa is trying to prosecute AG Holder for not releasing docs he's legally prohibited from releasing.

A.I.

While this does not make the administration look good, Republicans are beginning to look just plain silly. Claiming this was some clever plan to rally support for gun control...really. And the NRA is scoring the episode as anti-gun. Lewis Carroll couldn't hold a candle to these guys...and it is mostly, if not all, guys.

Donald Pay

I've been reading an excellent book on the problems of countries undergoing climate change and facing the resulting problems (migration, dislocation and accelerated urbanization) . "Tropic of Chaos" has a number of chapters dealing with Mexico. What's clear is there are many problems in Mexico and in the United States that are festering, and contributing to drug warlordism. The failed gunwalking programs are such a small problem that it is heartbreaking the Republicans want to push this forward while sweeping under the rug all the major problems (corporate control of agriculture, multinational corporate control over economies, climate change, fishery decline, NAFTA consequences) that are causing enormous disruption and disintegration of societies and contributing to massive corruption.

Lorenz Gude

One factor I think is involved in Fast and Furious that hasn't been explicitly mentioned is NOT party political and that is simply the nature of bureaucracy. The ATF in particular. Once something like the ATF gets established (as the FBI or the CIA did before it) it becomes a political force on its own within government and it goes on from administration to administration. Consequently I think if you try to explain scandals like F&F simply in terms of the ideology of the government of the day you miss the underlying, and largely invisible, bureaucratic machinations going on to further the expansion and continued existence of the bureaucracy involved. Remember the ATF are the folks who brought us Waco and Ruby Ridge. (No, I'm not blaming Reno and Clinton - I'm pointing to the idiocy of the ATF.) Zooming back I think the entire war on drugs has been a colossal failure that has allowed the ATF to flourish and do dumb things over and over. I find myself agreeing with many on the left, and some on the right, who regard the drug war as a colossal failure. I agree that the demand for drugs that creates drug gangs is clearly in the US and that reflects something that is out of balance and wrong in our own culture. And I think it is obvious that prohibition has worked no better with drugs than it did with booze. I don't pretend to know the answers - all I know is that what we are doing isn't working. For example, what if the government supplied the drugs and made them available at cost in clinics? I can see all sorts of problems, but that sure would disintermediate those making money from drugs.

A.I.

Something else not explicitly mentioned is the guns involved in F&F are far from the only ones Mexican drug cartels have; they are a drop in the bucket. But to here the Issa's and KB's tell it, you might think Obama, Holder and the ATF are responsible for every drug-trade related death occurring in Mexico.

The fact is, drug cartels get guns from various sources including unregulated purchases at gun shows in the U.S. That being true, why would the administration have to sell guns to them directly in an effort to trigger a backlash against the ready availability of things like assault rifles?

duggersd

No, A.I., the administration is only responsible for the guns from F&F that were used in the deaths of Mexican citizens. I read somewhere that something like 35,000 Mexican people have been killed by the drug cartels since 2006. F&F has only been accused of being responsible for 200 or 300 and one ATF agent and one ICE agent. Like the guns, these deaths are just a drop in the bucket. Who cares, right? As for the why part of the question, perhaps it is because most of the weapons do not come from the US. http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/19/where-drug-cartels-really-get-their-arms/? Think about it for just a second. You need 40,000 weapons. And you want weapons that use most of the same ammunition. Are you going to go to a gun show and buy one or two at a time or find a supplier who can get you hundreds if not thousands? And if you are an administration that has a certain ideology and the facts do not support it, just what do you do?

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