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Monday, December 19, 2011

Comments

Bill Fleming

Oh brother. Humanitarian? Please.

At the stem cell scale the organism in question is about as human as an amoeba. It's only function is to make copies of itself. I don't see how you think it's okay to talk about evolution on the one hand, then turn around and deny it on the other. It makes it difficult to take your — otherwise fairly convincing — argument seriously.

Bill Fleming

I just had a nice evening with my good friend/writer/novelist/biologist Dan O'Brien and we discussed several things related to your recent posts here, KB. Among them the sad passing of Christopher Hitchens, and the scientific method of species classification. Dan confirmed what most biologists understand which is that speciation is a somewhat arbitrary exercise (he used the word "fuzzy"), and that we "humans" perhaps do ourselves a distinct disservice when we attempt to distance ourselves from the "animals."

It's not much of a stretch to imagine ourselves one day being "classified" by future generations as being "almost sentient." In that context I think it behooves us to be somewhat more introspective and compassionate in regard to how we would like the next iteration of conscious life forms to consider our "species" when contemplating scientific experimentation, if for no other reason than our own self-interest.

duggersd

If that organism in question only replicates itself, we would never see a human form. We would only see a whole bunch of single cell organisms. Interestingly, the adult stem cell research has had positive results unlike embryonic stem cell.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell Since there is a question among reasonable people as to when life begins, why use the embryonic?

Bill Fleming

Scientists have now developed a method of extracting stem cells from embryos without destroying the embryo. At the stem cell scale its only function is to make copies of itself. The reason to use one's own tissue therapeutically is to make sure one's own body doesn't reject the "foreign" tissue.

larry kurtz

Chimpanzees are patriarchal, bonobos, matriarchal. Heard on public radio:

http://ttbook.org/book/going-ape

Jimi

Larry is the "Missing Link"

Bill Fleming

Kind of a tangent, but what about this deal: http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/feds-issue-warning-to-unconventional-sperm-donor/article_5751b32c-2a88-11e1-89e1-0019bb2963f4.html

larry kurtz

Inter-species relationships went out with Bianca and Mick Jagger, Bill. Get a grip.

larry kurtz

get a grip...please.

larry kurtz

In that consenting adults don't always make choices inscribed in law, right? ie. we make stuff up as we go along...it's the beauty of liberal democracy.

Donald Pay

The NIH guidelines are the result of a consideration of ethical issues of nonhuman primate research undertaken by the scientific community. These appear to be reasonable, and were recommended by the scientific community. I don't see how that could be considered "anti-science."

Ken Blanchard

Donald: there was no scientific reason for cutting chimpanzee research. It was done for moral reasons. Is that anti-science? It sure would have been if it had been a Republican Administration! As for reasonable standards, that may true of the guidelines for biomedical research. As for behavioral research, you really think it reasonable to require that chimpanzees cooperate?

Ken Blanchard

Larry: I am not sure what the terms "patriarchal and matriarchal" mean when applied to the two species. Males are dominant in chimpanzee groups, to be sure. Among bonobos, female coalitions prevent male dominance but do not enforce female dominance.

Ken Blanchard

Bill: I won't take time out to correct your quaint biology. I will only point out that the stem cell controversy concerned embryos, not cells. The Bush Administration wanted to foreclose the creations of embryos for the purpose of harvesting cells. The policy was measured, allowing federal funding for existing stem cell lines but not for new lines. As it seems to have turned out, the promise of embryonic stem cells was exaggerated.

At any rate, the motives of the Administration were humanitarian because they believed that the research they opposed represented a threat to human dignity. Did that make Bush's policy "anti-science"? No, and I don't really think the NIH guidelines on chimpanzee research are "anti-science". I just like to see policies judged by the same standard regardless of which party initiates the policy.

Donald Pay

Your assumption is that science does not factor in morality. Wrong. The Bush Administration tried to impose its anti-science morality onto science from the top down. and against the advise of scientific ethicistss. This particular decision involved a scientific body suggesting ethical standards for experiments on chimpanzees, which were subsequently adopted by a governmental body to apply to government funded research.

Bill Fleming

There are therapies for MS, spinal cord injuries and diabetes all ready to go based on embryonic stem cell research. Many of the projects are being pulled for lack of funding. Saying "the promise of embryonic stem cells was exaggerated" is an instance of self-fulfilling prophecy not unlike some clients I've had in the past who had us make advertising messages for them and then wouldn't come with the money to buy the media to run them. Then they tell people "oh, we tried doing ads, it doesn't work for us."

http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2011/11/17/stem-cell-research-shelved/

Dave

"surly"

1. Sullenly ill-humored; gruff.
2. Threatening, as of weather conditions; ominous: surly clouds filled the sky.
3. Obsolete Arrogant; domineering.

"This may be the right policy or not, but it is surly a case of the triumph of politics over science."

Dave

"Surely"

1. With confidence; unhesitatingly.
2. Undoubtedly; certainly: You surely can't be serious.
3. Without fail: Slowly but surely spring returns.

...

Ken Blanchard

Dave: are you really fourteen years old?

Donald: I don't know what "factor in morality" means, but a moral concern for chimpanzees is neither more nor less "anti-science" than a moral concern for unborn human beings. The fact that a team of scientists endorsed a moral concern does not change this fact.

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