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Thursday, August 04, 2011

Comments

Donald Pay

Huh? The fact that no one, especially Republicans, want to talk about collective bargaining indicates that Republicans have lost that argument. When the police and prison guard workers turn against the Republicans, there isn't any point in trying to explain away your anti-union message. Your only hope is to turn the elections away from a referendum on the hated "budget repair bill" with its attack on collective bargaining. What the Republicans didn't seem to realize is that the higher paid union workers voted Republican. Those voters have switched.

Since those days in February the Republicans have done even more damage to the state, and most of the ads (I hear a lot of them) are talking about budgets and the impacts to the middle class. Although Republicans tried to sell themselves as fiscal conservatives, the Republicans actually increased state spending. Most of that increase went to giveaways to the wealthy and corporate elite. So Republicans and the Koch funded groups are trying to change the subject with ads that show how much Republicans support public schools!!!! They are using Democrat issues to try to save their seats!!!!

George Mason

Donald, as usual, demonstrates how out of touch he is. The actions of the legislature last spring have narrowed the budget deficit and started an economic recovery in Wisconsin. This has created and saved jobs, to borrow a phrase from Obama. Including the jobs of the teachers in Brown Deer. I am certain those teachers appreciate it. Once again the conservative/Tea Party people have acted responsibly for the overall good of the state and been proven correct. (Perhaps the Obama campaign simply couldn't come up with enough buses last spring to provide a large enogh mob of out of state thugs.) What Walker has accomplished should be a lesson for Illinois and Minnesota. Reducing the cost of government and the cost of doing business benefits everyone.
The French newspaper unions, in the past, were largely part of the French communist party. In the 1970's they took much of their direction from Moscow which is why they were intent on doing so much harm to their employers.

Michael (Constant Conservative)

After reading this article, I must confess to thinking of a marvelous idea for creating millions of new jobs almost immediately. Job training would take very little time and almost anyone could do the work.

It's quite simple, really. We will legislate that truck drivers must have someone with them who does nothing but watch the line on the right side of the road to ensure that the truck is remaining where it ought. The driver would then only need to concern himself with the lines to the left. Of course, we would need to specify that drivers and liners perform different jobs and that one cannot perform the other's job--to keep trucking teams from doing without the services of professional liners. We would would need to ensure that each would be paid the same to ensure that there was no envy.

Given the roughly 3.5 million truck drivers in the US, we could knock unemployment numbers back into the middle single digits. What are we waiting for?

duggersd

A couple stories for Donald:
http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S2228761.shtml?cat=10151
In this one, the opponent of the senator running in a recall says they could have saved the money if they had cooperated with the teachers. I suspect they would have if the teachers had cooperated with the school board.
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2011/07/01/end-of-collective-bargaining-saves-wi-school-district-nearly-2-million---unexpectedly.php
In this story, the main source of savings is from not having to deal with WEA Trust, the provider of health insurance as required before. Guess who owns WEA Trust! Why it is created by the Wisconsin teachers' union! No wonder the union did not want any changes! Where are they going to get all of that money for their union now? Talk about a conflict of interest!
I believe one school district was actually able to hire more teachers due to the savings. Another school district was actually able to rescind the layoff of 27 school teachers due to savings. But the union only cares about teachers' jobs, right? If so, then why do they force school districts to lay off union workers? Could it be because it is more important to have union dues taken out of their checks rather than forcing teachers to actually make their own payments? Hmmm.

George Mason

Michael that is brilliant! Donald and Larry will sign on to that wholeheartedly.

Stan Gibilisco

Michael, I'll go you one better. Here's how we can reduce unemployment to zero, no matter what the state of the economy.

Hire regulatory supervisors who ensure that government regulators are doing their jobs correctly -- one regulatory supervisor (RS) per regulator. Then hire regulatory supervisor supervisors (RS2's), one RS2 per RS. Then hire regulatory supervisor supervisor supervisors (RS3's) one RS3 per RS2. And so on and so on and so on, RS4 to RS5 to ... to RSn (where n equals some positive integer, defined by necessity) building the hierarchy as far as we need to go until every last employable person has a job.

Of course the tax burden for such a scheme might be considerable, because all these RSn's would need salaries; but it would beat sliding into another Great Depression, wouldn't it? And anyway, all those newly employed RSn's (where n equals some positive integer, defined by necessity as outlined above) would pay taxes into the system, increasing overall revenue.

Bill Fleming

I don't have much to add here. Just a little interlude perhaps, for those of us consumed by the "work ethic."
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Excerpt:

"When I suggest that working hours should be reduced to four, I am not meaning to imply that all the remaining time should necessarily be spent in pure frivolity. I mean that four hours' work a day should entitle a man to the necessities and elementary comforts of life, and that the rest of his time should be his to use as he might see fit. It is an essential part of any such social system that education should be carried further than it usually is at present, and should aim, in part, at providing tastes which would enable a man to use leisure intelligently. I am not thinking mainly of the sort of things that would be considered 'highbrow'. Peasant dances have died out except in remote rural areas, but the impulses which caused them to be cultivated must still exist in human nature. The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in which they took an active part." — Bertrand Russell "In Praise of Idleness"

Jimi

Stan,

"would pay taxes into the system, increasing overall revenue."

No....let's see you work through the math on that one, and let me know what you come up with!

Stan Gibilisco

Jimi,

Oh, I know about the math; I merely wished to express my sarcasm by appearing to fall into the black hole of absurdity so often exhibited by the Far Left. The taxpaying, unionized Rn's would be paid with their own tax dollars. Or, put in terms more appropriate to the situation, the snake would eat itself from its arse end.

I did forget about those folks who could serve in the capacity of writing the Employee Guidelines (manuals) and general regulations applicable to RSn's at each level. In that capacity I might find a job, my current writing career having been decimated by a combination of taxation, regulation, and intellectual property theft.

Oh, and the evolution of this Utopia would all, of course, be blamed on that Locus of All Blame (LOAB), the forty-third president of the United States, by those who grow to hate the New Order; for those who like it, the Master Enabler (ME) could receive the credit, the forty-fourth President.

Donald Pay

duggersd,
IIf you read your links all the way through you will see that the savings were available through negotiations with the unions. In fact all the supposed "savings" hyped as a result of Walker's anti-union bill were offered up by the unions in negotiations. Sorry that you can't keep up with all this. All this is pretty well known here, which is why Republicans are not advertising their union-busting as a positive to voters.

Jimi

Stan,

"I merely wished to express my sarcasm by appearing to fall into the black hole of absurdity so often exhibited by the Far Left."

Just making Sure! :)

duggersd

Donald, I did read the links. The problem with the savings available through negotiations is the union had no interest in negotiating, as I pointed out in the original post. And with the Kaukauna school district, they actually saved $2,000,000! Not through cuts offered by the unions. But cuts by having employees pay their fair share of health care and retirement benefits. And magically, WEA Trust decided after the school district was able to find another vendor, they could match that vendor's price. I think if you are honest with yourself, you can admit the teachers' union is corrupt. I really do not know the politics of WI except for what you tell us from being in there. So far, I know that we still have Senator Feingold, a new Supreme Court Judge and a Democrat Governor. Oh, wait, I guess I should not have paid attention to you after all.

Donald Pay

duggersd,

You really do not know what you are talking about. WEA Trust is a non-profit benefits plan administrator. It competes with other plans for school district business, and generally can outcompete the for-profit firms. That's what rankles some of WEA Trust competitors.

http://www.weatrust.com/wea/weamain.nsf/WebViewAllSelect/862573630060F0B1862578450053A6C3

Donald Pay

The problem, duggersd, is you don't really understand what you are talking about. Walker's union busting doesn't have anything to do with the teachers union requiring school districts to select WEA Trust. By the way, WEA Trust is a non-profit founded by a consortium of small school districts and the teachers' union.

What Walker's bill did was negate collective bargaining over health care benefits. School districts always had control over which provider it chose, but it had to bargain over some basic provisions of what the plan must include. Now the union can't bargain over whether the plan to be put out for bid would include various levels of co-pays, what the premiums will be, what should be offered in the plan, etc. All that is now left up to the school board. The school board is still required to put those plans out for competitive bid.

Here is a link that might help you understand the process.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110713/APC06/107130351/Commentary-Competition-capitalism-get-results-schools?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cs

Mark Anderson

Ah, the French, I'm sure they are combing the internet looking for arguments to email about, perhaps not, perhaps they are simply out for dinner. What will any benefits that Unions have brought us, look like when unions disappear? It should be fun to see what the Eric Cantors of the world will bring to us when the Randian view prevails. I'm sure God will still be here, is Eric really religious, or just hiding his atheism? Finally we will have a thrifty working class.

Ken Blanchard

Again, great thread! I would only add that I am not opposed to unions or collective bargaining. I just think that such bargaining cannot forever insulate union members from economic realities.

Nor am I opposed to idleness. I just think that someone has to, you know, make stuff. A lot of grief might be avoided by reading Kipling. Here from memory is a scrap:

They do not think that their Gods will rouse them
a little before the nuts work loose
They do not think that the fates allow them
to leave their jobs when they damn well choose

duggersd

Donald, I am sure I do not know what I am talking about. However, here are a couple of excerpts from Byron York's article:
"The contract required the school district to purchase health insurance from a company called WEA Trust."
"The problem for Hartland-Lakeside was that WEA Trust was charging significantly higher rates than the school district could find on the open market. School officials knew that because they got a better deal from United HealthCare for coverage of nonunion employees. On more than one occasion, Superintendent Glenn Schilling asked WEA Trust why the rates were so high. "I could never get a definitive answer on that," says Schilling."
"But teachers union officials wouldn't allow it; the WEA Trust requirement was in the contract, and union leaders refused to let Hartland-Lakeside off the hook."

"In the health insurance talks, for example, Schilling last year began telling teachers about different insurance plans, some of which, like United HealthCare's, required a higher deductible. "We involved them, and they overwhelmingly endorsed the change to United HealthCare," he says. But even with the teachers on board, when school officials presented a change-in-coverage proposal to union officials, it was immediately rejected. The costly WEA Trust deal stayed in place."

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/07/wisconsin-schools-buck-union-cut-health-costs#ixzz1UFkgGejj

I am sure I do not know what I am talking about, but I do know what I have read. Notice how the teachers' union refused to go along with something that would save money for its members. Notice the part where it says that the contract required the purchase of health insurance from WEA Trust. And I doubt it rankles competitors when they are way higher in premiums than the competitors. I suspect what rankles competitors is how they are not even allowed to compete.


Donald Pay

duggersd,

Again, you are really don't understand the issue. As your own source says the district board had negotiated that provision and put it in a contract. That occurs after there has been a formal or informal process to get quotes from competing insurance providers. Those quotes, though, used to have to be based on something the members of the union accept. The district was seeking to renegotiate that term of the contract regarding specifics of the health plan without making any concession elsewhere. Welching on a deal used to by something Republicans looked down on. Apparently you think it's fine to violate a contract. No sane person would put up with that sort of behavior.

Donald Pay

By the way, the rightie bloggers and the GOP has been set straight by a business reporter.

http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_647d2994-b22b-11e0-ae21-001cc4c002e0.html

duggersd

Um, not exactly, Donald. If you read a little farther, it indicates that the WEA Trust has been more competitive due to having competition. Also, you might note that in one of those articles, the administration asked the teachers' union to renegotiate using the WEA Trust. The teachers were on board with it. However the UNION refused! Now the question to ask yourself is who does the union represent? In at least one case, there are 27 more teachers than would have been without the new law. That would be 27 more candidates to pay union dues. And if the school district can save, oh say, $1,000,000 by switching but the union refuses, doesn't that make you wonder if the union is representing the rank and file or the union itself who has a stake in WEA Trust? No, I do not know all that is going on in WI. I only know what I read about online and see on the news on occasion. However, I am not so sure my spy in WI knows all that much either. Why do we say Senator Johnson instead of Senator Feingold? My spy in WI told me it would be the latter......

Donald Pay

More nonsense from duggersd. Here's a little bit more truth that answers the GOP lies.

http://filterednews.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/a-bakers-dozen-lies-in-the-walker-was-right-viral-email/

William

So Donald, do I believe you, or my own experience and "lying eyes"?

I've been a member of 2 unions, one because I had to join in order to work at all, the other because it was the "bargaining unit", whether you were a member, or not.

I grew up in the heavily unionized state of IL and watched first hand the violence and thuggery of the unions during factory and truck strikes during the 60s and 70s, while the forced dues paid by members bought off the political class (and police) to ensure that no criminal charges were ever investigated.

I've watched my hometown and downstate IL bleed jobs because of the union demands that served the retain union power at the expense of employees.

The last major plant in my hometown moved out a few years ago, not over wages or benefits for the employees but for the featherbedding work rules the union insisted were critical. The union's position was that employees could only work one job (one machine type) without receiving added compensation and ALL equipment had to be "manned" every shift and benefits were offered through a "union sponsored company".

Non-union plants in the area train employees on multiple machines and shift the work load to what's needed. Non-union employees in the area also had higher pay and better benefits.

At the end of negotiations, the union employees could either apply for jobs in union plants in other states (whenever an opening occurred) or they were forced into early retirement (if eligible) or simply out of work... Now, many of the jobs are being moved overseas, so there is no choice for most employees.

That's pretty much been the case with every plant closing in the area.

All my life, I've heard how the unions and the Democrat Party "worked for the common man", yet all my life I've seen them conspire to destroy them.

I've got no links to refer you to, just my personal observation over 50+ years of union demagoguery, violence, corruption and destruction of the middle class in "middle America".

If CAT pulls out of IL, that could be the tipping point for the state to declare bankruptcy. Then what? If ADM were to re-locate its operations, the state is done, and then what? The country cannot afford to bail-out the states, unless it prints money the point that money means nothing anymore.

For global corporations, charter in the US is a matter of convenience and strategy, if it becomes to costly, they'll simply "fly another flag" and be gone...

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