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Saturday, January 08, 2011

Comments

A.I.

It's a matter of how one expresses reverence. Al Franken's explanation of how conservative vs. liberals express love of country is applicable to reverence for the the constitution as well. This from Talking Points Memo: "As Franken noted, liberals love America like adults love their parents, while conservatives love America like a four year-old loves his parents. Liberals love America, but can emotionally and intellectually recognize that America sometimes takes an errant path and try to get back on course. This is the same way an adult child loves a parent. Conservatives, on the other hand, think everything America does is right, just as a young child thinks everything Mommy does is right even if Mommy is acting unwisely. And a four year-old will punch you in the nose if you ever say anything bad about Mommy."

I believe applying Franken's analysis in all instances would be an over-generalization. However, it does explain why at least a large number of conservatives are dismissive of liberals as unpatriotic when they question things like our invasion of Iraq.

KB

A.I.: you say that "a large number of conservatives are dismissive of liberals as unpatriotic when they question things like our invasion of Iraq." Can you show me a "large number" of examples? Can you show me a single example?

A.I.

Two examples include Sarah (Obama is trying to destroy America, pals around with terrorists) Palin and Glen (exploit the fantasies of the crazy right to make a buck) Beck and their devotees. In light of the Gifford's shooting though, dismissive may be a bit weak--if the shooting was politically motivated.

unicorn4711

Here are the results from a five minute Google search. It's all hearsay and you can discount it if you'd like.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/sd_09-20-04.html

Remember 2004? "Daschle's three years as Complainer in Chief have brought shame to the honor of his office, concern to our men and women in uniform, and comfort to America's enemies." --Randy Fredrick, South Dakota Republican Party Chairman

While not leveling the charge of being unpatriotic directly, Fredrick (and later Thune) went one step further by arguing that Daschle's words aid the enemy. I found the whole exchange weird on both sides. BTW: Do you really take people to the woodshed in Aberdeen?

Or here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2106109/

"While young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrats' manic obsession to bring down our commander in chief." Quote attributed to Zell Miller.

It's not that far from alleging that those who oppose the president oppose the USA.

Sean Hannity allegedly made various quotes calling those who question policy in Iraq unpatriotic, as is reported here:

http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/unpatriotic-sean-hannity/Content?oid=1115092

KB

A.I. provides no quotes and what he invents is not germane. unicorn admits that his evidence is "not that far from" what he is trying to prove. Strange, that with large numbers of conservatives saying something, these two can't come up with any actual evidence.

A.I.

You can find a few quotes from some folks who are hardly liberals here: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/8/934191/-Saturday-hate-mail-a-palooza,-BEST-OF-THE-YEAR

I did slightly misquote Palin in that she only accused Obama of trying to "weaken" America:http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/sarah-palin-obama-hell-bent-on-weakening-america. The quote about "pal'n around" with terrorists is accurate. Both indicate he is treasonous which seems to me is at least unpatriotic. As for make-your-skin-itch Beck, are you really in need of direct quotes to prove he advances conspiracy theorys about Obama and liberal anti-American sentiments. And by the way, he was the one saying Obama wants to destroy America.

KB

A.I.: Even if these quotes were germane, is two a "large number" of conservatives? In neither case do you provide the slightest support for your claim that "a large number of conservatives are dismissive of liberals as unpatriotic when they question things like our invasion of Iraq." More than a few conservatives questioned the invasion. George Will has been a consistent critic. The KOS page you link to is a dump of hate mail. Almost any large site on either side gets that kind of mail.

I have yet to see a single case where a reputable conservative or a Republican accused someone of being unpatriotic because he or she questioned the Iraq war. Yet the Left repeats this canard over and over.

unicorn4711

With all respect, you've got to admit that say that a US Senator who states that questioning the President's policies emboldens the enemy destroys discourse.

As for other "reputable" conservatives and Republicans who suggested that to question Bush's policy in Iraq was unacceptable, how about the President himself?

"Bush has suggested that critics are hurting the war effort, telling U.S. troops in Alaska on Monday that critics 'are sending mixed signals to our troops and the enemy. And that's irresponsible.'"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501450.html

In this article, Hagel, not Bush, transferred the allegation from "irresponsible" to unpatriotic. You may be completely correct that no "reputable" conservative or Republican ever called those who questioned Iraq policy "unpatriotic." The exact quotes from high-profile Republicans, like a child's game of telephone, may have been distorted by responders like Hagel and the press. However, the idea propagated by the likes of Bush and Thune that questioning the President either on Iraq policy (as Bush stated) or in general (as Thune's quote suggests) is an extremely cheep method of trying to quite decent.

A.I.

You asked me to name just one KB, I gave you two and their devotees--or do you think those listening approvingly to these two do so only for entertainment. I used Iraq accusations as one example of conservatives dismissing liberals as unpatriotic and unicorn4711 has done an admirable job of validating that claim.

Dismissive was a weak term though in that it did not convey the fact that liberals are also demonized by a good deal of contemporary rhetoric. But I chose the word to note another characteristic of current conservative rhetoric, which is it's tendency to delegitimize liberal and moderate policies on grounds that liberals lack reverence for America and the constitution and thus can and should be dismissed out-of-hand. This includes the "show" of reading the constitution aloud with the stated purpose of showing the House was once again going to abide by its principles--with the clear implication being that for the past four years that had not been the case.

KB

A.I.: you have no case. I am sure that somewhere out there is someone who believes that anyone is opposed to the Iraq is unpatriotic. With over 300 million people, there has got to be someone. Apparently, that someone is hard to find.

Neither "large numbers of conservatives", nor large numbers of Republicans, nor the Bush Administration believes or has said any such thing. Nor large numbers of Conservatives "delegitimize liberal and moderate policies on grounds that liberals lack reverence for America". To be sure, conservatives think that liberal policies are bad for America. Otherwise they wouldn't be conservatives. The same goes in reverse for liberals.

You and I agree on a lot and disagree on several things. I would never for a moment question your patriotism. Every conservative I know of thinks the same way. The only attempt to delegitimize dissent that I can see right now is being led by the likes of one Paul Krugman.

Jimi

Al Franken is not a crediable person for a reasoned analysis. Why don't you ask the Cookie Monster what he thinks? Same Realm!

D. Marmorstein

Ken, would you consider presenting something on Shakespeare, the war of the roses and the U.S. constitution for Shakespeare Club sometime?

KB

D. Marmorstein: Yes.

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