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Saturday, September 18, 2010

Comments

Donald Pay

What happens when you don't understand history is you draw the wrong conclusions.

You have not stated the entire history here. Synfuels were defeated twice in Congress after first being proposed by the Ford Administration. Synfuels had Republican support. Opposition has always come from environmentalists, principally, who saw synfuels as a destructive corporate welfare give away that would have negative environmental consequences.

It was well known by environmentalists that the natural gas "shortage" was a result of two natural gas markets--one regulated and one not. The interstate market was regulated by the feds, the intrastate market was more or less unregulated (maybe some minimal state regulation). The natural gas companies manipulated this market to jack up prices in the unregulated market while creating an artificial "shortage" in the regulated market. The gas didn't materialize because of government policies. It was always there, but it was a market manipulated by the natural gas industry.

Finally, the price of natural gas fell during the Reagan years because of a recession and energy demand reduction policies instituted at the state level.

George Mason

We can always depend upon Donald to proffer the conspiracy theory. It is one thing Jimmy Carter can take credit for, and deserves it, is that he did begin the deregulation of industry that helped foster the economic boom of the '80's and from which we still benefit today. The deregulation of natural gas and airlines under Carter and of oil under Reagan reduced prices overall and led to greater efficiencies. This benefited every citizen of this country by lowering costs of any good or service dependent upon travel or transportation (which covers just about everything). Unfortunately we began to see a move toward reregulation in the '90's and 2000's which is some of what we are suffering from today. Government meddling and regulation of business and industries like insurance, banks, automobiles,petroleum and health care have been driving prices up and we will soon be seeing severe shortages if this trend is not reversed. The market will regulate itself by answering the needs of the participants. Government has never been capable of meeting the market or anticipating its changes. The more government interferes in the market the more dismal the prospects for a strong and growing economy. We became a great nation because our forefathers understood this and fought the King of England because of it.

Donald Pay

Well, there you go again, Mr. Mason, not learning the right lessons. You would think the Republican created failures of Enron and the financial collapse would have driven home the lesson, but ideologically driven worship of the market stands in the way of learning lessons. The same thing is happening now with financial reform, with conservatives so religiously devoted to a failed ideology that they are taking money Wall Street made from the federal bailout to assure Wall Street can recreate what brought us down. Yeah, you don't want regulation that strangles business, but you have to have regulation that reasonably protects the public from excesses.

Donald Pay

By the way, Bush's 2005 Energy bill included corporate subsidies for synfuels, tar sands and shale oil. There's your government meddling.

Donald Pay

By the way, Bush's 2005 Energy bill included corporate subsidies for synfuels, tar sands and shale oil. There's your government meddling.

George Mason

Donald; You are a little confused while you are attempting to confuse. There should be no subsides for synfuels etc. That's the point which you conveniently missed (or incapable of understanding). It is a poor allocation of funds and causes distortions in the market. Enron failed due to fraud which was an attempt to cover up the huge bet that ENRON was making that Clinton would go even bigger into wind subsides. If the government would stop meddling in business then the bailouts would not be necessary. It is government actions that have led us here. The idea that more government interference is going to get us out is on the order of dousing a fire with gasoline.

Donald Pay

You need to read up on Enron. You have no clue what you are talking about.

KB

Donald: If subsides are a bad idea, and they are, it doesn't matter who sponsored them.

Donald Pay

Yeah, tell that to Koch.

George Mason

Donald, Donald, Donald. Your obvious lack of experience and education in practical, real world economics is a deficiency for which there is neither time nor space in this blog to address. Enron is an example (and a metaphor) for corrupt governance not an example of why government subsides are a good thing. Enrons leaders bedazzled the board of directors and shareholders with promises they could not deliver on (much the way Obama got elected). Too few people on the board looked at the numbers and questioned how they were calculated. Fastow, Skilling et.al proclaimed nothing was wrong (ala Barney Frank and Chris Dodd). Meanwhile Fastow and Skilling were skimming large sums from certain departments of the business (see Jamie Gorelick and Franklin Raines). The crooks kept proclaiming that expenses were assets while no one noticed there was no money in the bank (like the CRA worked out). As you are obviously not aware Enrons two largest businesses are two of the most heavily regulated industries. Electrical generation and transmission and natural gas transmission. Now you can change the subject again.

Donald Pay

Yes, government, corrupted by the energy industry, and purposely made unable to regulate. Sounds about like what happened in the financial industry.

Oh, here's a subsidy carved out by one of those supposed free market supporters:

http://thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=2daafef7-f5c6-4efd-8de6-3c7a8b7e2aa7&Month=9&Year=2008

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