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Wednesday, July 07, 2010

Comments

BillW

While I am about as strong an anti-gun control guy as you will find, and I see the 2nd ammendment as pretty clear on the matter, an honest assessment of this data indicates that the lack of correlation is a two-edged sword. The notion that readily available guns actually deter murders (an arguement often advanced by the NRA and their supporters)doesn't seem to carry much weight either.

George Mason

Bill old friend, You may want to look into the work of John Lott who has done extensive research in the matter of guns and crime. His best known work is "More Guns, Less Crime" which demonstrated a correlation between the enactment of conceal-carry laws and a reduction in crime in the states that Lott studied. Anecdotally if there was a correlation between guns and crime South Dakota should resemble Chicago circa 1925. Also, two of the most heavily armed countries on earth are Sweden and Switzerland (they have universal military service and adult males maintain their weapons at home)have quite low rates of crime.
If you look at the FBI annual records you will find that murders committed by someone using a gun are disproportionally within specific racial and socio-economic parameters and the majority of these crimes are related to the illegal drug trade.

BillW

I am simply pointing out that Ken's chart demonstrating a lack of correlation demonstrates lack of correlation both ways. I don't think the presence or absence of guns has much to do with murder rates at all. I happen to believe that sick, violent people commit murders, and whether having a gun is legal or not, and whether a lot of people in the neighborhood have guns or not, doesn't play much part in the thought process one of these sickos brings to bear on the matter.

As far as the studies you cited go, they would seem to be at odds with the data Ken cited, wouldn't they?

That said, I think it is a very useful thing to have access to a gun in the unlikely event one of these wackos decides to come after you or me.

strandediniowa

The difference I see between Brady's numbers and the Lott or Kleck studies are that Brady's numbers are based on an opinion as in "My opinion is that South Dakota has lax guns laws". These types of arguments are like putting 50 people in a room and some will think the room is too cold, some too hot, and some just right.

Lott and Kleck could at least demonstrate actual numbers of gun ownership trending up and crime trending down.

As has been said, all this graph shows is that Brady's opinions of lax gun laws don't correlate to the murder rate of a state. The rate neither supports or disproves the organization's utopian ideal.

I wouldn't cite this study by Mr. Amkraut to disprove Lott or Kleck's work only Brady itself.

Davidka

Since it's just us scholars here, let's be frank with each other. You would find a very close correlation between what is euphemistically called "socio-economic factors" and the crime rate, including violent crime and including crimes involving guns. To get rid of euphemisms and be more frank, there is an obvious and direct correlation is between the percentage of blacks and to some extent certain Hispanics (e.g., Puerto Ricans in New York City), and the crime rates.

Certainly, however, the evidence does not indicate that few guns mean less crime; quite the opposite, as John Lott and others have clearly shown.

KB

Thanks to all for the thread so far. BillW obviously has a point. If gun violence rose in proportion to the severity of gun control laws, that would be a very robust finding for the NRA! It doesn't.

There is a difference between saying that certain kinds of crime decrease as a result of a right to carry law, and saying that gun violence decreases with relatively loose gun laws. Lott's argument, by which I was persuaded, was that the passage of a right to carry law leads to a decrease in personal assaults such as mugging or rape. I seem to recall property crimes showed a slight increase, suggesting that some criminals were moving to presumably unarmed targets. It occurs to me that that result may be in part due to psychology. A RTC law encourages a predator to wonder whether that pretty coed walking across the street from campus might have a pistol in her purse. I say good.

At any rate, the chart suggests that loose gun laws do not have an effect, positive or negative, on gun violence rates.

KB

Thanks to all for the thread so far. BillW obviously has a point. If gun violence rose in proportion to the severity of gun control laws, that would be a very robust finding for the NRA! It doesn't.

There is a difference between saying that certain kinds of crime decrease as a result of a right to carry law, and saying that gun violence decreases with relatively loose gun laws. Lott's argument, by which I was persuaded, was that the passage of a right to carry law leads to a decrease in personal assaults such as mugging or rape. I seem to recall property crimes showed a slight increase, suggesting that some criminals were moving to presumably unarmed targets. It occurs to me that that result may be in part due to psychology. A RTC law encourages a predator to wonder whether that pretty coed walking across the street from campus might have a pistol in her purse. I say good.

At any rate, the chart suggests that loose gun laws do not have an effect, positive or negative, on gun violence rates.

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