Travis Dahle of Badlands Blue and I are in a bit of a row over the issues of tolerance, gay marriage, Don't Ask Don't Tell. Travis took the time to reply to my original arguments with a post of his own that can be found here. I am responding with a blog post, as it allows for better formatting and because the original debate began here.
Below is my reply to Travis's last argument:
This is a difficult issue for me, because I agree with your idea that people ought to be treated with respect. I also agree that it is possible to treat people with whom one disagrees respectfully. Nevertheless, I am opposed to forcing Christians, families, schools and soldiers to accept a practice that is morally reprehensible to them. I believe that these groups are entitled to respect and dignity as well. I am also opposed to the idea of giving approval to a practice that I believe will increase the exploitation of young men and boys.
Your original statement was the following:
To me it is about treating all people with respect and dignity - of course, I'm a liberal, and I think they should be allowed to marry as well, so I'm sort of in the minority here...
I read this as a claim that conservatives did not believe in treating people with dignity and respect. You claim that you only meant that liberals were more tolerant than conservatives on gay rights issues and that I certainly agree with. However, I still disagree with your statement. Here, you say that to you, the issue is about treating all people with dignity and respect. But in your most recent response, you say the following about the views of fundamentalist Christians:
Playing the 'I show a lack of tolerance towards their belief' card doesn't affect me at all – I have no problem being intolerant to views that are archaic and out of date.
Supporting intolerance toward people who have these views is not "treating all people with respect and dignity." It is insulting to call their views archaic and out of date. Therefore, I believe that to be accurate, your statement ought to read, "I believe in treating people I agree with with dignity and respect." So does almost everyone.
Furthermore, tolerance of homosexuality is not a new idea. It has been around at least since the heyday of Ancient Greece. Therefore, I could just as easily dismiss your support of gay rights as archaic and out of date. But it is the merit of our ideas that is important here, not their modernity.
I disagree with your notion that you are not forcing your views on anyone else. You are, indeed, by trying to change legislation. Whether you are right in doing this is something we can debate about. But the fact that you are doing it is obvious. By supporting the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, you are supporting efforts that will require soldiers to accept homosexuality. So I don't buy the idea that Christians are the only ones who are trying to force their will on others. Liberals do it often. This is, I think, the way American politics is supposed to work. We, the people are supposed to be a part of our government. But let's not pretend one side is pushing views on the other, while the other is simply "wishing" people would agree with theirs.
Meanwhile, by trying to push legislation that legalizes gay marriage, you do not simply affect the government. Already, individuals have been sued for refusing to hire homosexuals or, in a recent case, refusing to photograph gay weddings. These lawsuits will almost certainly be more common and more successful if gay marriage is legalized. So to pretend that you are somehow not forcing your views on others may make you feel better about doing it, but it is not honest.
Furthermore, legalizing gay marriage puts what some call "a societal stamp of approval" on male-to-male courtship, which, when it exists between two middle-aged males may not be such an issue. But when it happens between a middle-aged male and a young boy it can be highly exploitative.
You offer instances of Lesbian-Baiting and rape up as evidence that the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy is a bad one. These are things which, you say, we should be appalled by. I agree. Rape is appalling – which is one reason many are uncomfortable about allowing homosexuality in the military. There has been, historically, a problem with allowing homosexual men to serve as authority figures for young men and younger boys.
Consider the problem of homosexual bullying in British boarding schools, where boys as young as twelve were preyed upon sexually for years by male supervisors and older boys. It has had devastating consequences. You can read about some of these in the following articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/international/europe/11britain.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2446412.ece
Consider also the vulnerability of young men to the advances of pedophile priests that have repeatedly made the news.
There is a similar problem in the American military, where homosexual sergeants have used date rape drugs to rape and molest younger recruits.
In the Air Force, Capt. Devery L. Taylor was court martialed after he was found guilty of the rape of four soldiers and the attempted rape of two others. The story of his case can be found here:
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,126982,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl
Retired Colonel Richard H. Black submits that homosexuality in the military undermines discipline, saying the following:
Worldwide crime reports documented serious disciplinary issues involving homosexuals who slipped unlawfully into U.S. military forces. Troops physically restrained one homosexual drill instructor as he attempted to rape a recruit struggling to flee out a second-story window. Two homosexual soldiers forcibly sodomized a lone soldier showering at night, forcing him to submit by strangling him with a bath towel. A master sergeant preyed on newcomers by getting them drunk before sexually assaulting them.
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/military-232507-homosexuals-officers.html
Are not these also things that we should be appalled by?
It is hard for women to admit they have been raped. It is, perhaps, harder for men who have been forcibly sodomized. Cody Openshaw was a disabled vet who was raped by a male platoon sergeant while waiting to be medical discharged. It ruined his life. Here is his story:
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/military-men-are-silent-victims-sexual-assault
The sergeant warned Openshaw against talking about the rape, threatening his family.
I think that this is at least as appalling as the lesbian-baiting you mention.
Now, to you, the fact that lesbian-bating is appalling is reason enough to oppose Don't Ask Don't Tell. Is the fact that forced sodomy exists reason enough to oppose it?
I have one more major issue with what you say. You quote Richard Mohr as saying the following:
The order says that as long as you gays act as though we people don't know who you are, we will act as though you don't exist, and thus in
our willing ignorance, recommit ourselves to viewing your status as loathsome and repulsive.
You bold another section, indicating that you agree especially with it:
No one can accept the "don't ask, don't tell" policy and suppose that at the same time he or she is treating lesbians and gay men as persons.
I disagree emphatically with this idea. The policy does not mean that homosexual soldiers are treated as if they don't exist. It simply asks them to keep their sexual lives private. Therefore, a soldier can, instead of looking at his fellow soldier as "that guy who has sex with men," see his brother in arms for his merit. If he is a good soldier, his fellows will see that, rather than his sexual preferences.
One's sexual appetites are only one part of life. They are not the whole thing. Pretending that there is nothing more to a homosexual man than sex is extremely unfair. Elton John is not simply a gay man. He is also a phenomenal singer. If I don't focus on the fact that he is gay, but rather on the fact that he has a beautiful voice, is that really denying his existence? I don't think so. I really don't know why anyone needs to make the world aware of their private inclinations. I certainly would not choose to and I would be rather happy to know that someone was judging me on my merit, rather than some sort of idea about sexuality.
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