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Monday, February 21, 2011

Comments

unicorn4711

I think part of the difference between the US and many European countries is that in the US, our definition of 'us' is a far broader concept. It has never been directly attached to ethnicity, race, or religion but has rather been attached to the liberal ideals of our independence. That, however, doesn't explain why multiculturalism isn't working in France. Not since the French revolution has being French had to do with being any race or religion. Perhaps it's just easier to integrate Latinos and Asians than Muslims?

lynn

Muslims don't want to integrate. They want a califate. Big difference in their customs, Sharia law etc that makes it difficult to melt into and with other cultures.

larry kurtz

Why, Ken; you old softie. The Hopewell Tradition was thriving as "liberalism" was emerging in Europe; but, what the hell? You have arrived at the ball in your egg.

Hoka hey! Excellent argument for L/N/Dakota in every South Dakota high school curriculum.

larry kurtz

Not Europe, Greece; my bad.

George Mason

To often the problems of multi-culturalism are blamed on the majority's supposed intolerance. The problems usually arise with a beginning in overindulgence to a minority followed by overreaction when problems start to arise (the French banning burkhas). We face a growing problem in our country due to a lack assimilation and an aversion to assimilation by current immigrants. One of the actions that would reduce the friction long term would be to require all business be conducted in English. People cannot understand each other on a personal or cultural level if they do not understand what each other is saying. The inability to communicate in the common language locks too many immigrants into poverty. This can be observed in Europe as well as here. Not using a common language also causes cultural conflicts ala Quebec. The oft heard "diversity is our strength" is insipid. Diversity adds to our culture, our strength comes from what unites us. We became strong because older immigrants, like my grandfather, wanted to and worked hard at assimilating themselves to become Americans.

William

The aggressive multiculturalism we see in America today — and its enabler, political correctness — will soon be as dangerous to this nation as it is currently to Britain. Aggressive multiculturalism, promoting a negative view of America, argues that all cultures must be equal.

American exceptionalism is based on 3 traits:
1) Individual liberty
2) Constitutionally-limited government
3) Free markets

No other other nation in history has combined these 3 traits. That is why America is (or was) exceptional. None of these other cultures that we are supposed to admire or respect contain these 3 traits. They simply act to dilute what is exceptional about America.


Multiculturalism discourages legitimate cultural confidence, the ramifications of which are on display in much of Europe. Our own elites, particularly in the political class, would do well to take notice. Many of their constituents have.

larry kurtz

"Worse yet, many grew up ashamed of their culture and traditions because they had been force-fed the idea that their past was now meaningless and ties to their ancestors was akin to something evil. The shame and guilt foisted upon two or three generations of Native Americans became a part of a new culture; one that had many Indians searching for themselves and finding absolution in alcohol and drugs.

Combine all of these problems with extreme poverty and you have sown the seeds of extreme depression. Indian children of today are often raised by their grandparents because they are the children of teenage mothers, who have been abandoned by their boyfriends, who in turn are the children of parents that lost all ties to their own traditions and culture."

Tim Giago: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-giago/high-suicide-rate-on-indi_b_594794.html

Educators: resist red state failure and embrace multiculturalism.


Ken Blanchard

Lynn: I am sure many Muslims want very much to assimilate. Some surely want Islam to rule the world. Many of those who came to this continent from England came here precisely to avoid assimilating back home.

I am all for teaching students about diverse religions, ethnicities, and traditions. I see no reason why Native Americans or American Muslims should be any less proud of their roots than Irish Catholics or Anglicans. My point was rather than there is only one point of view from which one can make such a claim. That is what I called multipolar culture.

Donald Pay

Here's something close to home for South Dakotans to ponder about multi-culturalism: Hutterite colonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite

Hutterite collectivist farms and their use of irrigation have set up some clashes with family oriented agriculture in South Dakota over water rights and the pollution caused by return flows. I've been at contested case hearings in South Dakota where the testimony can't be "sworn" as you would normally put someone under oath. Instead, Hutterite witnesses must "affirm" an oath. It amounts to the same thing, but the state has bent its rules and procedures to allow this Christian group not to conform to "our" way of life.

Let's say Hutterites were Muslim, rather than a Christian sect. What would be the reaction to letting a Muslim group use an alternate oath, develop collectivist farms or businesses, and compete vigorously against family agriculture?

In this regard, my grandfather told me that one of his duties in World War I was to go out to the Hutterite colonies and make them fly the US flag. Since they were of German heritage, and spoke German almost exclusively, there was more than a little suspicion that these folks might be, shall we say, not one with the US war effort. Well, they weren't, but it was because they were militantly anti-military, both German and American. Anyway, my grandfather said all he did was go out there run the flag up the pole, take it down immediately, and left.

larry kurtz

Good eye, Don.

Or FLDS. http://www.childbrides.org/dakota.html

From the Rapid City Journal:

“A secretive religious group linked to national cases of polygamy and the marriage of underage girls may be expanding to the Edgemont area, and there may be little Fall River County officials can do. The property in question was part of the estate of Buddy Heck and was left to Doris Seabeck and to Carolyn Fines. Seabeck is Heck’s sister and is the personal representative of his estate. Seabeck signed the purchase agreement, which is being contested by Fines in the courts. The commissioners said that as Carolyn Fines is state’s attorney Lance Russell’s mother, there may be some conflict of interest on the county’s part.”

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/top-stories/article_9c9260f6-c46f-5c3e-9b8a-4d12d4f5b837.html

Ken Blanchard

Donald: Very good question. The answer is that, in all likelihood, a Muslim community similar to the Hutterites would be treated exactly the same as a Hutterite colony. There has been some adverse reactions to Muslim communities in the U.S., but it has been pretty mild. How would Hutterites be treated if some of their own, in the name of their religion, had flown planes into a skyscraper?

Likewise, consider the placement of foot baths at the University of Michigan. How would the left have viewed that if it were done on behalf of Southern Baptists rather than Muslims? The left would have gone to court.

BillW

The option to affirm, rather than swear, an oath has been in place in just about ecert courtroom for decades, and it hardly began with the Hutterites.

BillW


The option to affirm, rather than swear, an oath has been in place in just about every courtroom for decades, and it hardly began with the Hutterites.


BillW

The option to affirm, rather than swear, goes back to England in the 1600's.

Also, just about every American court allows you to swear on the bible, the Koran, a copy of Moby Dick, or no book at all - whatever you want, because it is the swearing or affirming that counts, not what religion you want to invoke, if any.

Donald Pay

KB,

Regarding your last paragraph, my daughter put this link (from the Global Times, the English language version of the People's Daily) on her Facebook page.

http://beijing.globaltimes.cn/two-cents/opinion/2011-02/625687.html

It was hard for me to tell whether this opinion piece was in jest or satire, but what it shows is that calls for censorship or various other forms of cracking down on "outside influences" are often couched in terms of "protecting women."

BillW

KB - Global Times is a propoganda organ of the Chinese government. Virtually everything they write is suspect. This piece it sounds as though they are using the admirable goal of defending Chinese women and children as justification for tightenting censorship. There is considerable unrest in China - and censorship has been heightened lest the Chinese might learn of and draw inspiration from the revolutions in the Middle East.

Donald Pay

BillW,

It's hard to tell whether this is some call for tightening censorship, or a backhanded, satiric slap at such thought. If it's satire, it is genius.

Donald Pay

Speaking of censorship, conservative hero Scott Walker is taking a page from the Chinese-Hosni Mubarek playbook.

http://www.channel3000.com/politics/26952454/detail.html

BillW

Donald,

Here is the version from CNN - hardly a Republican leaning source:

"The Department of Administration blocks all new websites shortly after they are created, until they go through a software approval program that unblocks them," Werwie said. "Within 30 minutes of being notified this website was blocked, DOA circumvented the software and immediately made the website accessible."

It isimpossible to tell if you deliberately exaggerate the facts in order to present Republicans in a bad light .... or if you are really so ignorant of what real censorship in China is like. Either way, comparing this incident to Chinese practices is absurd and makes you look quite foolish.

larry kurtz

You're too young to remember Dale Carnegie, aren't you, Billy? L. Ron Hubbard, my guess; with a generous dose of Ayn Rand, maybe a sprinkling of The Turner Diaries tossed with some Gustave Le Bon. Clyde Tolson ring a bell at all?

BillW

Actually I'm not to young to remember Carnegie at all. I've read Rand, wouldn't waste my time on Hubbard or the Turner Diaries, a little bit of Le Bon out of historical interest, but not philosophical, and I have no clue what Clyde Tolson has to do with anything.

How about you? Leonard Peltier's book committed to memory, I suppose, and a lot of academic prose. I have always thought that the difference between liberals and conservatives is that a liberal stops learning when he leaves college, while a conservative's real education begins after he leaves the campus. So I imagine you view just about anything from an Ivy League or California based sociology professor as essential reading material. Am I right?

The memoirs of all the old hippies, Al Gore's and Jimmy Carter's books. What else?


brian

Why is this blog called SD Politics when it appears that it seldom covers SD Politics?

Ken Blanchard

Brian: for the same reason as New York is called NEW York.

Ken Blanchard

Bill: I think Donald acknowledged the dubious nature of the site. Thanks for filling us in.

The Chinese government tries to maintain a unipolar control over culture while employing all the devices of multipolar culture. That is the great threat that modern civilization has faced for more than a century.

BillW

KB, Perhaps Donald has greater experience than I give him credit for, but I was in China in March 2008 when the Chinese military was 'cracking down' on Tibet in order to round up and get out of the way any and all potential troublemakers prior to the Olympics. I experienced the taking down of every foreign news site on the Internet, had my Blackberry jammed up for days, had foreign TV news blacked out ... in short had no information concerning the outside world's reporting of events in Tibet and learned the official Chinese spin only. Note that I was not in China once as a tourist, but have been there more than a dozen times over the past few years. I don't undrerstand China as some abstract political theory - I understand it as it really is.

That was a major event, but it is typical of China. Censorship is comprehensive and attempts to limit all information Chinese people see. An openly anti-government web site Donald cited - defendwisconsin.org - would never have made it to the Internet in China. In fact, the creators of it would have been rounded up and shipped off to a Chinese prison.

To compare the server at the state house in Madison with the Chinese for taking a day and a half to screen it for viruses is ridiculous. It is on par with demonstrators likening an American governor with Hitler and Mussolini. Whether these are intelligent people deliberately attempting to mislead the public, or they are incredibly ignorant of the cruelty and oppression Hitler and Mussolini wreaked on their people, and the degree of control and utter disregard for basic human rights the Chinese practice, it is insulting to all Americans for them to make such comparisons.

BillW

KB, Perhaps Donald has greater experience than I give him credit for, but I was in China in March 2008 when the Chinese military was 'cracking down' on Tibet in order to round up and get out of the way any and all potential troublemakers prior to the Olympics. I experienced the taking down of every foreign news site on the Internet, had my Blackberry jammed up for days, had foreign TV news blacked out ... in short had no information concerning the outside world's reporting of events in Tibet and learned the official Chinese spin only. Note that I was not in China once as a tourist, but have been there more than a dozen times over the past few years. I don't undrerstand China as some abstract political theory - I understand it as it really is.

That was a major event, but it is typical of China. Censorship is comprehensive and attempts to limit all information Chinese people see. An openly anti-government web site Donald cited - defendwisconsin.org - would never have made it to the Internet in China. In fact, the creators of it would have been rounded up and shipped off to a Chinese prison.

To compare the server at the state house in Madison with the Chinese for taking a day and a half to screen it for viruses is ridiculous. It is on par with demonstrators likening an American governor with Hitler and Mussolini. Whether these are intelligent people deliberately attempting to mislead the public, or they are incredibly ignorant of the cruelty and oppression Hitler and Mussolini wreaked on their people, and the degree of control and utter disregard for basic human rights the Chinese practice, it is insulting to all Americans for them to make such comparisons.

larry kurtz

You mean, doublespeak, Bill? Just trust your computer to load your story.

BillW

What doublespeak is that, Larry?

larry kurtz

South Dakotans! Thank a Democrat today! http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/education/article_367d7218-3ed8-11e0-9cc5-001cc4c002e0.html

Donald Pay

BillW.,

My daughter complains of the same things regarding China. Don't try to google "human rights," for example. The young folks have figured out ways to get around a lot of the censorship, and can access blocked sites via other avenues.

BillW

Donald,

You're right. There is a never-ending cat and mouse game in China as the younger people try to get information. The censors can't plug the leaks as fast as the kids can open them. In the long term there is going to be a sea change in China and I suspect it will not be pleasant or peaceful when it happens. I have said many times that when the communist regime in China falls, the credit will go to Bill Gates and his cohorts. Keeping information out is impossible and China's old approach of isolating its people cannot stand up to the electron barrage from so many satellites.

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